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1 0 0 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Proceedings held on Wednesday, June, 0, commencing at :0 p.m., Ed Ball Building, North Hogan Street, Conference Room 00, st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large. PRESENT: June, 0 DAVID B. CASE, Chairman. SEARCY C. DANNHEIM, Commission Member. ANDRES LOPERA, Commission Member. MAIJU STANSEL, Commission Member. ALSO PRESENT: CHRISTIAN POPOLI, Planning and Development Dept. SONDRA FETNER, Office of General Counsel. GLORIA BLAKE, Planning and Development Dept Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 P R O C E E D I N G S :0 p.m THE CHAIRMAN: Calling to order the meeting of the Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission for Wednesday, June th. We now have a quorum. I'll take care of some housekeeping items first. If you plan to speak, please fill out a yellow speaker card, give it to Gloria at the table there. When you do come up to speak, give us your name, address, and be sworn in. If you would like to engage in a private conversation, please do so in the hallway because that conversation is picked up by the court reporter. If you have a cell phone, please put it on silent or vibrate. At this time, we'll do some self-introductions, starting with Christian. MR. POPOLI: Christian Popoli, with the Planning and Development Department. MS. FETNER: Sondra Fetner, Office of General Counsel. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: Andres Lopera, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 commissioner. of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM THE CHAIRMAN: David Case, commissioner and current chairman. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Searcy Dannheim, commissioner. COMMISSIONER STANSEL: Maiju Stansel, commissioner. THE CHAIRMAN: And we would like to recognize Maiju. This is her first meeting of the Commission. In addition, we will have a -minute break starting at o'clock, every two hours; :00 and :00, and hopefully not more than that. And, at this time, I will entertain a motion to approve the minutes of our May th meeting. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I motion to approve the minutes of the May th meeting. THE CHAIRMAN: Do I hear a second? COMMISSIONER STANSEL: Second that motion. THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have approved the minutes of the May th meeting. We have quite a few deferred items tonight. The deferred items are COA--0 at Lechlade Street; COA-- at 00 College Street, Lot A; COA-- at 00 College Street, Lot B; COA-- at Canterbury Street; COA--, North Market Street; and COA-- at North Liberty Street. Do any of the commissioners have any ex-parte conversations to declare? THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We'll open it to a public hearing. Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak to any of these deferred items? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close the public hearing. Moving on to the consent agenda, those items on the consent agenda are: COA-- at 0 Park Street; Number is COA-- at North Liberty Street; COA-- at West th Street; COA-- at North Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

2 Market Street; COA-- at Liberty Street; and MMA-- at 0 Pine Street. Do any commissioners have anything to recuse or any ex-parte conversations on any of those items? THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll open it to the public hearing. Do any of the commissioners have any desire to pull any of these items? THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, are there anybody in the audience that would like to speak to any one of these items? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRMAN: Knowing that when we approve these items, it means that the applicants have agreed to the staff recommendations and conditions. Seeing none, we'll close the public hearing. I'll entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: I make a motion to approve the consent agenda with the staff Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 recommendations. THE CHAIRMAN: Do I have a second? COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I second. THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the motion? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have approved the consent agenda. We have no condemned properties tonight. We have two historic designations. The first one being the Norwood Elementary School, LM--0. Do we have a staff report? MR. POPOLI: Yes. Through the Chair, this is Landmark -0 for the Norwood Elementary School. The property is located in the Norwood neighborhood, northwest of downtown Jacksonville. Norwood Elementary School opened in. The two-story brick building -- it is a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 two-story brick building with a one-story wing on each side that held classrooms and restrooms on the first floor. It was designed by Jacksonville architect Jefferson D Powell. The original building reflects the attractive variation of the Colonial Revival style with accentuated front entrance features, featuring a cast stone, broken pediment and arched fan lights, as well as the original half-divided light sashes. The first classroom addition was constructed in 0, with another expansion in. In, a new auditorium and two classroom wings were constructed from an additional -- from a design by Jacksonville architect, John Gray Louie. The school was closed and declared surplus in 00 and was acquired by the current owner, which is Grace and Truth Development Company. In preparing the application, the Planning Department found the application to meet four of the seven criteria. The four criteria include the following: Criteria A, its value as a significant reminder of the cultural, historic, 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to of of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 architectural or archaeological heritage of the city, state or nation. Criteria B, it is identified as a work of a master builder, designer or architect whose individual work has influenced the development of the city, state or nation. Criteria E, it is valued as a building that is recognized for the quality of its architecture and it retains sufficient elements showing its architectural significance. And Criteria G, it is suitable for preservation or restoration. So based on these findings, the Planning and Development Department is recommending approval of this landmark designation. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Do any of the commissioner have any questions for staff? THE CHAIRMAN: I have one. Is the property owner in favor of the designation or not? MR. POPOLI: Yes. It was requested. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. I'll open it to the public hearing. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

3 Is there anyone else that would like to speak to this item? AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) THE CHAIRMAN: Please come forward. (Audience member approaches the podium.) THE CHAIRMAN: Everyone that has an opportunity to speak has three minutes to do so, and Gloria is keeping the time. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon. My name is Ellis Maduaka-Cain. I'm at Concord Boulevard East. I'm with the -- the board chair for Grace and Truth CDC, the owner requesting this designation. MS. BLAKE: Sir, would you raise your right hand, please. MR. MADUAKA-CAIN: (Complies.) MS. BLAKE: Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MR. MADUAKA-CAIN: I do. MS. BLAKE: Please continue. MR. MADUAKA-CAIN: Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MR. MADUAKA-CAIN: We've owned the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) building for about eight years, and it's -- presently, the auditorium is being used as a community center. The plan is to develop it as a charter school or as a senior citizen residential structure. So that's what we're working toward. We're working toward getting a State designation also to get in on the National Registry of Historic Places. That's a bunch of work. So that's our -- any questions or -- THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your effort. MR. MADUAKA-CAIN: Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else who would like to speak to this item? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close the public hearing. I'll entertain a motion to accept the recommendation of staff. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: I motion to accept the report and the recommendation of staff to approve this landmark designation of Norwood Elementary School, LM--0. THE CHAIRMAN: And by our recommendation, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 that goes to the City Council? MS. FETNER: That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN: I just wanted that understood. I have a motion. Do I hear a second? COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I second. THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all those in favor of the motion? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you've approved the recommendation to City Council for the historic designation of the Norwood Avenue school. Then we move on to Number, the Young Women's Christian Association of Jacksonville, Florida, LM--0, commonly referred to as the YWCA building. Staff report. MR. POPOLI: Thank you. Through the Chair, this is Landmark -0 for the YWCA building, located at East of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 Duval Street. The three-story brick building has significant value as a reminder of the Young Women's Christian Association or the YWCA, as one of Jacksonville's noted institutions with over a century of exemplary community service. The Jacksonville charter of the YWCA was chartered in April of with 0 subscribing members. After being in two different locations, the YWCA was able to purchase the parcel at the northwest corner of West Duval Street. After World War II, aggressive fund-raising for the construction of the new building resulted in raising enough money to construct the,000-square-foot, three-story building (inaudible) designed by Jacksonville architect Jefferson D. Powell. He also supervised the construction in consultation with the chairman of the Men's Advisory Committee. The Florida Times-Union described the proposed building as being a Southern Colonial style. The center gabled subtype of the Colonial Revival style reflects the YWCA Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

4 building as a centered -- sorry -- has a centered front gable at either a hip or side gable roof, mimicking a more high style of the Georgian or Adam prototypes. Other elements of the Colonial Revival style evidenced in the YWCA building are a symmetrical (inaudible) pattern with a centrally placed entryway and double-hung sashes, usually with a grid pattern, such as a six-over-six or a nine-over-nine. Other architectural features common with the Colonial Revival style found in the subject property is the presence of the accentuated entryway. The Planning and Development Department has found that the application meets four of the seven criteria. The four criteria are as follows: A, its value as a significant reminder of the cultural, historic, architectural or archaeological heritage of the city, state or nation. Criteria B, is identified as a work of a master builder, designer or architect whose individual work has influenced the development Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 of the city, state or nation. Criteria E, its value as a building is recognized for the quality of its architecture and it remains -- retains sufficient elements showing its architectural significance. And Criteria G, it's suitable for preservation or restoration. Based on the findings of these four criteria, we're recommending this landmark for approval. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Does anybody have any questions for staff? THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public hearing. Is there anyone that would like to speak to this item? AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) THE CHAIRMAN: Please come forward. (Audience member approaches the podium.) THE CHAIRMAN: State your name and address and be sworn in. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Greg Radlinski, 0 East Church Street. MS. BLAKE: Do you affirm that the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MR. RADLINSKI: I do. MS. BLAKE: Thank you. MR. RADLINSKI: I had lived at the Parks at the Cathedral, which is on the block bounded by East Church, North liberty, East Ashley, North Market Street, since it was developed in 00. I support LM--0, landmarking the YWCA Community Connections building and developing the site for residential purposes; however, I do not support the Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission relying on or affirming the Cathedral Technical Assistance Panel recommendation to increase residents in an as-yet-to-be-established cathedral district which would be far larger than East Duval Street by building apartments, which was the basis of the staff's determination that apartments on the landmark site satisfy Criteria G, suitability for preservation and restoration, and I recommend that the Historic Preservation Commission approve the landmark designation and find that residential use that 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to of of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 is not limited to apartments satisfies Criteria G. A residential use is not limited to apartments. It includes townhouses and condominiums. In the 0s, the St. John's Episcopal Cathedral wanted to help develop a residential neighborhood in the area where the cathedral is located, and it was a clear preference for owner-occupied residential development. So the vacant lot, which it was a -- became a vacant lot used as a parking lot by the cathedral -- was suggested as a site, and the cathedral partnered with the City and the Bank of America Development Corporation -- Community Development Corporation to build workforce housing, which is what the plan is ultimately for the site where the landmark is, and the -- developed the Parks at the Cathedral, which were townhouses, not apartments. And the City supported that policy by Ordinance --E by offering homesteaders 0-year soft second mortgages and 0-year economic development grants. And if an owner occupied the unit for ten years, the result was the second mortgage was forgiven, paid off, and Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

5 the owner got up to $, in economic revenue development grants. Well, in 0 the cathedral hired a Technical Assistance Panel to outline development of a cathedral district. There was no indication at the time that the TAP was active, that Community Connections, YWCA could close at any time soon. A TAP stakeholder commented that in the preceding five years, the height of the great recession in the real estate crisis, no Parks units sold for more than $0,000, and that intimated the townhouses and condos shouldn't be built in the Cathedral District because they can't be sold at a profit, everything should be apartments. Well, in January of 0 the TAP report recommended, build apartments on available land in the Cathedral District. Thereafter, the YWCA Community Connections closed, and reuse really hinges on residential reuse. And Cathedral District Jacksonville, Inc., and Chase Properties, Mr. Balanky, proposed apartments while the JHPC staff parrots the TAP report recommending apartments. As evidenced, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 the development satisfies Criteria G, preservation and restoration. Well -- (Timer notification.) THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. Please continue your thought. MR. RADLINSKI: In 0, townhouses are economically viable. Three Parks units have sold in 0 for more than $0,000, 0,000,,000, $0,000. And townhouses remain consistent with the City's and the Cathedral's earlier preference for owner-occupied residential infill in the Cathedral District, and there's no evidence that townhouses aren't viable. I asked the developer's consultant, Ms. Ginny Myrick, for the developer's economic assessment that led him to conclude that townhouses weren't viable and had to go to apartments. I got nothing. So the only evidence that I can find in the record is that the townhouses can't be built because of the TAP anecdote about 0/0 sales prices. And the developer's applying for tax credits and incentives, which could be applied Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 to townhouse or condos, as well as apartments, like the City's soft second mortgages and the revenue grants in 00 when everybody began to move in. In my view, having lived at the Parks at the Cathedral since 00, apartment dwellers are not community builders. When the going gets tough, having no skin in the game, they leave. Property owners stay and try to work to protect their investment. So I recommend that you approve LM--0, but don't rely on outdated Parks at the Cathedral townhouse sales data and inferentially condone an apartment complex that is satisfying the suitability for preservation and restoration landmarking criteria. Don't bolster a preference for apartments when you simply favor residential use. Otherwise, when it gets down the line and the developer is looking for tax credits and grants, he's going to say, "Well, the TAP stakeholders said these places won't sell. The TAP says townhouses will not sell. Oh, Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission says it satisfies Criteria G because it calls for apartments of sheets Page to 0 of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) because townhouses won't sell." I don't want you to help the developer build a record which really should be a matter that's decided by the people who give the grants. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. For the record, Jacksonville Historic Preservation is only interested and only has the purview of the landmark designation. Anything related to planning and zoning is not the purview of this board and we have nothing to do with that. MR. RADLINSKI: I understand that, except -- THE CHAIRMAN: And we have not recommended one form of housing over another. We are strictly looking at the potential of landmarking the YMCA building, and that's it. MR. RADLINSKI: And I understand that, but to satisfy the Criteria G -- THE CHAIRMAN: That means -- MR. RADLINSKI: -- the -- THE CHAIRMAN: That means that building is suitable for preservation. It has nothing to Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

6 do with the rest of the block. MR. RADLINSKI: Well, I respectfully disagree, reading Criteria G as written in the staff report. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MR. POPOLI: Through the Chair -- THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. POPOLI: -- just to -- this is a requested landmark by the applicant, so technically they only need to meet two criteria. THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. MR. POPOLI: I don't know that we necessarily relied on that report, but it was certainly referenced. THE CHAIRMAN: I understand. Is there anyone else that would like to speak to this item? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) MS. FETNER: Through the Chair, there's an important distinction that needs to be made on what is being landmarked, and I believe Christian can -- MR. POPOLI: Yes. My apologies. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 Just to refresh everyone, this is the L portion of the building, minus the flat roof around the rear that you guys agreed at the last hearing to approve demolition. THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. Okay. If there's no one else to speak to this item, we'll close the public hearing. I'll entertain a motion for the acceptance of staff's recommendation for the designation of the YMCA building -- YWCA building, sorry. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I'd like to make a motion to approve the staff report for a landmark designation of the Young Women's Christian Association of Jacksonville, Florida, LM--0, at East Duval Street, and that is only the L-shaped portion of the building. It does not include the flat roof portion of the building. THE CHAIRMAN: Do I hear a second? COMMISSIONER STANSEL: I would like to second that motion. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? THE CHAIRMAN: I'll call the question. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 All those in favor of the motion? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you've accepted the staff's recommendation and recommendation to send the YWCA to the City Council. Okay. We will move on to Certificates of Appropriateness. First we will take up Item Number, COA--, at 0 Post Street. Do any commissioners have any ex-parte comments on this item? THE CHAIRMAN: We'll open it to a public hearing. Staff report. MR. POPOLI: Thank you. Through the Chair, this is COA--, located at 0 Post Street in the Riverside Avondale Historic District. This is a request to construct a -foot fence along the property line adjacent to James Street and an -foot fence along the rear property line. 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to of of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 Staff is recommending two conditions: One, that the proposed -foot fence along James Street should be lowered to feet or moved back to the rear corner of the primary structure. And Number, that the proposed rear yard fence shall be no higher than feet. These conditions represent the district fencing guidelines that were established by the Commission, just for clarity. The home itself has existing brick piers that probably had fencing attached at one point in time. The request was to run the fencing from the corner of the house through these piers and then replace this existing fence along the back here with an -foot fence. So we're recommending that this remain at feet and this be lowered to feet. THE CHAIRMAN: Do any commissioners have any questions for staff? THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant here? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) MR. POPOLI: It does not appear so. MS. FETNER: For the record, is the applicant present? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

7 MR. POPOLI: I do not believe so. MS. FETNER: Has the applicant stated an agreement to the conditions that were recommended? MR. POPOLI: No. If they had, they would have been on the consent. MS. FETNER: Okay. Then my suggestion to the Chair would be to defer it until the applicant is present, but you can open -- you can take public comment now. And also, if you do speak on this matter today, you can speak on it again when it does come up. So you're not required to speak on it today, but you can speak on it today and then also at the next meeting. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone here that would like to speak to this item? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We'll close the public hearing and we'll defer the item until the applicant is present. The next item, COA--, at Park Street, has been withdrawn. So I will need a motion to accept the withdrawal of that item. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I'd like to make a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 motion to withdraw COA--. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Second. THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a second. All in favor? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have accepted the withdrawal of COA--. Moving on to Item Number, at 0 Park Street, COA--. Do the commissioners -- any commissioners have any ex-parte conversations to declare? THE CHAIRMAN: I'll open it to the public hearing. MR. POPOLI: My apologies. Through the Chair, this is COA--, located at Park Street. Actually, this will be a new lot created through this application, so it does not currently have an address, but this is the address of the house of the parent lot. The request is to construct a new Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 single-family home. Staff has recommended a number of our standard conditions. The applicant has agreed to all of the (inaudible) save for two. The first being that the finished overall height of the structure shall be within one foot of the neighboring structure, and that the roof material be architectural shingles. They are proposing a structure that would be closer to two feet in height, and they're requesting a standing seam metal roof. THE CHAIRMAN: Which items were those? MR. POPOLI: It was Condition and Condition 0. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. MS. FETNER: Can you read all the conditions for the record? MR. POPOLI: Absolutely. MS. FETNER: And also, just for the Commission's sake, for the substantial competent evidence portion of your report, that indicates why it should be your condition and not what they're disagreeing with. MR. POPOLI: Sure. Certainly. Just to briefly go through the conditions, of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 we're requesting that all windows shall be vertically oriented, excluding the dormer windows on the rear elevation. Specifically, all windows on both side elevations along the first story were called out because those were horizontally oriented in the plans. All windows shall be recessed within the wall plane, shall be trimmed in a traditional manner. All window pairs shall be divided by a traditional mullion. The railing system shall be made of wood and have spindles set in an upper and lower railing, no exposed ends. The fascia boards and soffits shall be composed of wood or cementitious material. Vinyl siding would be inappropriate. The front door shall have clear glass without decorative etching. The front setback shall be between the setback distances of the contributing structure on either side of the proposed home. There's a substantial variation between the two homes front setbacks, so it's hard to match one or the other. The final finished floor height elevation Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

8 would be within inches of the floor height of the neighboring properties. The area between the piers shall be filled and framed with lattice or brick. The overall height of the structure shall be within one foot of the neighboring structures. The roof material shall be architectural or -tab shingles. Minor changes to architectural details, such as light patterns, column design, masonry stems, can be handled administratively by the Planning and Development Department. And final plans and product information will be submitted and approved to the Planning and Development Department prior to submittal of construction -- or permitting for construction. Additionally, there's a request for a detached garage, which we are recommending approval with the one condition that the garage door shall be of a carriage style. The two items that are in question -- the question of scale and height are two items that are called out on both, from the Secretary of Interior standards as well as the design Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) guidelines for the district. We have generally interpreted those to mean no more than a one foot variation in height of the adjacent contributing structures, which, in this case, on either side this would be roughly two feet taller. So, hence, our condition for one foot. Additionally, the two structures that are on either side that are contributing are fundamentally sister structures. They appear to be built by the same architect or builder. They have a very similar brick construction, very similar roof forms, both of which are shingle. Additionally, standing seam or a -tab metal roof is not a common roofing material found in the historic residential -- or the Riverside Avondale district. It is generally something for new construction that we recommend or condition be architectural shingles or -tab to match the more common roofing materials. But, in this particular case, all the nearby structures are also either historic or traditional style shingles. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do any commissioners have questions for staff? Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant here? AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yep. THE CHAIRMAN: Come on up. (Audience member approaches the podium.) AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have some photos for the presentation. MS. BLAKE: Sir, if you would state your name and address for the record. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Matthew Austin, Rocky Lane, Macclenny, Florida 0. MS. BLAKE: Would you raise your right hand, please. MR. AUSTIN: (Complies.) MS. BLAKE: Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MR. AUSTIN: Yes, ma'am, I do. MS. BLAKE: Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. MR. AUSTIN: Good afternoon. As far as the conditions that are -- that are requested, I think they're all fair. As far as the metal roof or the architectural shingles with -tab, that's fine. 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to of of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 We can go ahead and do the -- the shingles. The metal roof is preferable by the owner, but it's not a sticking point, so we'd like to let that one go. The thing that I would like to argue with is the overall height. The overall height of this structure would be taller than the two right beside it, but across the street it would actually be shorter than, and I'm not sure if across the street counts or not, but it would be shorter than that one. The photos that I submitted -- and I think they're up there, and I can go through them. It just shows new construction. It seems to be there's a precedent with a lot of the new construction in Avondale that are higher than the neighboring structures. I don't want this structure to stick out like a sore thumb. That's not the intent, but with the two neighboring structures beside it, with a high pitch roof, I mean, it -- they almost appear to be a one-and-a-half story, but they're not. If we made it, you know, to match the way that those are, as far as height-wise, it would Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

9 be a one story and you wouldn't be able to do a one-and-a-half. And the house is already narrow as it is, feet to be precise. The neighboring house is foot, and the other house is foot. Obviously, back in the day cars were smaller and the driveways weren't as much of an issue, so -- we tried to make the house as narrow as possible. To make it a one story, in my opinion, anyway, would -- would not reflect what -- what is an appropriate house in Avondale. It would eventually be a shotgun house that is incredibly long, is my opinion anyway. So by doing the one-and-a-half story, you are obviously doing a couple of things. You're keeping a bungalow in Avondale, which I think -- I think belongs. It's just my opinion, but I see them all the time. I see other homes -- you know, bungalows all -- I'm working on one right next door to me, and it's about an eight foot difference in height between the two houses, John Well's project. And I looked at some more of these projects. I just drove around Avondale. All Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 of these are within a half a mile from this structure, and it seems like it -- there seems to be a precedent. A lot of new construction is taller. And, again, I'm not -- I'm not trying to make this look like it shouldn't belong in Avondale, but the way the style of the roof is with the shed roof as opposed to a gable facing the street, I don't think it's going to look imposing. I don't think it's going to look awkward. I think it will fit very well. I guess that's -- that's pretty much it. All the other conditions we can agree to. I think they're -- they're absolutely good with Avondale. It makes sense to me. We're just asking to please build this house slightly taller than the two neighbors but also shorter than the one that's across the street. I believe it does fit. Thank you for your time. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Do any commissioners have any questions for the applicant? THE CHAIRMAN: I have one. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: One of the conditions said that -- is the finished floor height shall be within six inches of the floor of the adjacent properties. Have we determined that what height is yet? MR. AUSTIN: No. I don't have it. If you're asking by memory, I would say it's about foot, inches, but I would have to put a tape on it and verify it exactly. But I've crawled under it before, and I remember -- my memory tells me it's foot. THE CHAIRMAN: Is that what the adjacent one is? MR. AUSTIN: Uh-huh, the one on Park Street, the one that's being renovated right now. THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. So what is the -- what is the anticipated finished floor height of this building? MR. AUSTIN: Oh, the new house? THE CHAIRMAN: The new one. MR. AUSTIN: I want to try to do it at foot, like, inches, foot, but I've got to talk to the Building Department because I of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 know there's a certain -- you don't want to do it too low, you know, because of vapor barriers (inaudible) -- (Simultaneous speaking.) THE CHAIRMAN: You have to maintain inches -- MR. AUSTIN: Yes sir. THE CHAIRMAN: -- from grade to (inaudible) -- MR. AUSTIN: Yes. But I'd like to get it as low as possible to, again, offset the overall height of -- THE CHAIRMAN: That's why I was asking. MR. AUSTIN: Yes, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: That's why I was -- MR. AUSTIN: Yes, sir. But we can stay within the six inches. I know that that shouldn't be an issue, to stay within the six inches. THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have photographs of the adjacent -- MR. POPOLI: Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: -- better than what's in our book? MR. POPOLI: I don't. I have what's in Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

10 the book, but I can pull them up -- THE CHAIRMAN: Well even, then, if you have that on the screen -- MR. POPOLI: Yeah. THE CHAIRMAN: -- it would be a help. MR. POPOLI: Unless you have some. MR. AUSTIN: This is -- I'm trying to -- this would be the proposed look of the new house. I wish it was a little bigger, but, again, it's just my opinion, but I -- I think this house fits Avondale beautifully. THE CHAIRMAN: And where is this one? MR. AUSTIN: This is in -- this is the one I'm proposing to build, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. MR. POPOLI: Okay. So those are -- this house here (indicating), this brick one, and then this one here are the two immediately adjacent structures that would be on either side. I'll try to make that bigger. They are very, very similar, so -- COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Could I ask a question? THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Go ahead. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Through the Chair, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 so what is -- if it's not within a foot or inches, do you know -- MR. AUSTIN: Yeah. I -- COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Did you say -- I'm sorry, I'm -- MR. AUSTIN: Yes, no problem. It will be between -and-a-half feet and foot would be the overall difference in height, but if -- if I may, I would also like to point out, the way that this house is oriented, being a shed style roof, when you -- when you stand back and look at a structure and you're looking up high, because the roof isn't a gable facing you, it will give the appearance of the height. See what I'm saying? Where that -- that pitch line going across there? That gable of that front dormer will be pretty close to the houses to the left and to the right. And, again, the overall structure in and of itself is smaller than the house across the street by quite a bit. THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have a picture of the house across the street? MR. POPOLI: Yes. MR. AUSTIN: As you can see, it's a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 one-and-a-half -- a true one-and-a-half story. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Does anyone else have any questions for the applicant? THE CHAIRMAN: Let's see if someone else has. Thank you. MR. AUSTIN: Yes, sir. Thank you for your time. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Does anyone else have any comments? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRMAN: We'll close the public hearing. Before he made his last comment, I was inclined to support everything in the staff recommendation with the exception of Number in light of the fact that the roof is moving away from you, not a gable, but it's -- it's imposed as the two adjacent structures are. So the roof is actually receding instead of being proud in your face with the gables on either side. And it appears that the house across the street is higher. So I'm inclined to -- my own personal 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to 0 of 0 of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) opinion is I'm inclined to support everything and allow the structure height as its designated, provided it meets all the other criteria. MS. FETNER: Through the Chair, was there a motion on that? THE CHAIRMAN: No, I'm sorry. MS. FETNER: Okay. THE CHAIRMAN: We need one. MS. FETNER: We need a motion and then you can begin discussing. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MS. FETNER: You're welcome. COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: I'd like to make a motion that we approve this -- COA-- with staff recommendations. THE CHAIRMAN: I need a second. COMMISSIONER STANSEL: Second that. THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor. Well, no, discussion. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: Yeah. THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: I agree with you as well, David, about the overall height. We have minimum building codes now from grade distance Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

11 to the bottom of the lowest structural member, which wasn't in place when the houses across the street were built. So I'm okay with whatever height is appropriate, as far as, though -- as long as it meets the minimum building code recommendations. And even if it goes up or feet, whatever it needs to be in order to match that same pitch that you have shown -- showed us in the picture. THE CHAIRMAN: Any other comments or -- COMMISSIONER LOPERA: So, through Sondra, is his -- THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can ask Sondra a question. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: Can I amend the motion to nix Number? MS. FETNER: Yes, you can. I just want to make sure that -- once you do that, we'll just have to make sure that you have substantial competent evidence to defer from the staff recommendation. I believe you said that, but I would like to have that as part of the discussion on the amendment. So you would make a motion to amend to, as you said, I think, remove Condition Number, Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 and then you would have a second and then a discussion and then you vote on that amendment and then vote on a -- after that amendment passes or fails, then you vote on the full application. COMMISSIONER LOPERA: Okay. Through the Chair, I would like to make a motion to amend COA-- to approve with conditions, with all the conditions mentioned in the staff report except for Number. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there -- COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Second. THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Sure. I agree with what you other commissioners have said, but I did think that if we accept this amended motion, then it needs to specifically agree with the photos or any other documentation that has been presented with this application so that -- you know, so that the staff will have something to -- and that staff would have to approve the final design, the final plans. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, the staff will have to do that as part of the -- both motions. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 It's the last item, so -- final plans have to be -- COMMISSIONER DANNHEIM: Okay. Yeah. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion and a second. All those in favor of the amendment? COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, your changes to the motion has been accepted. Now I'll entertain -- MS. FETNER: And just for clarification, the motion is to -- the amended -- the motion that is being voted on now is the staff recommendations, except for Item -- THE CHAIRMAN: Item. MS. FETNER: -- and this is the final vote, just so everyone is aware. THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. MS. FETNER: Okay. THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. MS. FETNER: Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the motion? of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye. THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed? THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, you have accepted COA-- with the conditions, except Item Number. We'll move on to Certificates of Appropriateness, work initiated or completed without a COA. I guess Number, COA--, Pearl Street. Do any of the commissioners have any ex-parte communication to declare? THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll open it to a public hearing. We'll get the staff report. MR. POPOLI: Through the Chair, this is a COA for work done without a COA. COA application -, at North Pearl Street. The request is for wholesale window replacement and also siding replacement. As I said, the application is for work done without a COA. The original windows were removed and replaced with a one-over-one vinyl product. The original windows were a Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

12 nine-over-one wood window. Additionally, the siding was -- the original siding was removed. It was replaced with a matching wood product, but staff did not have an opportunity to inspect the original siding, so we were unable to determine if it was salvageable. We did find that the new windows would not be appropriate based on the criteria for normal window replacement, which would be for matching the original design and materials. Additionally, the new windows are not recessed within the wall plane. We did find that the siding, both in style and in material, was appropriate, but since, again, we didn't have a chance to inspect the original siding, we can't recommend approval on that. There was a note that staff did not have an opportunity to review the rear of the structure, so we were not sure exactly if those windows were original or not. But, again, there was no COA, so there was no way to approve them regardless. Based on our inspections and the Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 information mentioned about the work and the products that were applied, we're recommending denial on both requests. THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for staff? THE CHAIRMAN: Did I open it to a public hearing? I think I did. Is the applicant here? AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm his representative. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Come forward. (Audience member approaches the podium.) AUDIENCE MEMBER: I've got some pictures here. MS. BLAKE: Sir, if you would state your name and address for the record, please. AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jeff Thompson. My address is Hamilton Street. MS. BLAKE: Would you raise your right hand? MR. THOMPSON: (Complies.) MS. BLAKE: Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MR. THOMPSON: I do. MS. BLAKE: Thank you. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 MR. THOMPSON: My name is Jeff Thompson. I'm a contractor in the Ortega, Avondale area, and have been for the last years. Mr. Johnson is an employee of mine. He's a very good carpenter. He's been with me for about five years. We're really proud of him. He does a great job. We want him to keep working for us. We want him to be able to stay in his house. He bought this house, I believe it was 00, from what I could find out. At that time, he started to do major renovations throughout the house inside, outside. He's done a lot of the front. He did it in 0, replaced the windows with vinyl windows. He had -- he was going to put the nine-light dividers on the inside or the outside. He was unsure, but he was going to make it look consistent with the old windows. He just never did that. One of the things -- the City has had a law that you had to permit windows since. They have not even enforced it until recently. And there's no real time when they did that. It was four or five years ago that they started 0/0/0 0:0: PM Page to of of sheets Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 doing this. They still don't look -- a lot of times we'll pull permits and they don't even look at them. They don't even come out. They don't care. So I guess he thought it wasn't that important and he didn't know all the historical things, so he went ahead and put these windows in. He spent the money. He has rebuilt the whole sides of the house. He's done a great job. When he bought the house, the windows were in horrible shape. Every room had a window unit in it. And I don't know if you're familiar with what a window unit does to a wood window, it just destroys it because it shakes it the whole time. They're called window shakers. And it has destroyed the windows. There is a picture there of the front side light that is under the porch. This is under the porch, and this is the shape it is with no sunlight and no water on it. And if you can imagine the ones that were outside in the weather, what they look like when he bought it, it's -- it would have been horrible. He did not save any of them. He didn't save any Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000

13 pictures. Didn't take pictures. That was a terrible thing he did, but I guess the solution -- or what they're telling me, they're going to fine him and make him take those windows out and put wooden windows in. In that neighborhood, that's not financially feasible for him to do that, or with his -- I hate to say he doesn't -- he doesn't make a whole lot of money. He makes good money, but he can't afford to put wood windows in a house like that. I don't understand why, in a neighborhood like Springfield -- if you look at the building beside it, it's a derelict, old, commercial building. It's horrible. And he's trying to fix it up and -- I don't know what he's going to do. He may have to walk away from it, if he has some type of lien on it or whatever. The thing about the siding -- I don't know what they wanted to look at. You can see the picture of the back corner, and it shows the siding that was there. It shows the windows that are there, which are old jalousie windows, which aren't -- I wouldn't think they're historical in any way. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) So what I'm asking is for him to be able to leave these windows in there. The original three windows across the front are there. They have been covered up for the last 0 years. Somebody put felt over it. When he bought it, there was felt over it and then he put some plywood over it when the last hurricane was coming. But what I'm asking is if -- if he could keep these windows. And the siding, I don't even understand why they're denying that. What do they want him to do? Take it off and put it back on again? Because it's the same material, same size. It's just -- everything lines up. It's perfect. And I met Blair out there and she agreed with me, but I don't know why they're denying that. That's really all I have. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's see if someone else has any comments. Thank you. (Audience member approaches the podium.) AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Christina Parrish. I live at West th Street, Jacksonville, Florida 0. Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 MS. BLAKE: Would you raise your right hand, please. MS. PARRISH: (Complies.) MS. BLAKE: Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? MS. PARRISH: I do. MS. BLAKE: Thank you. MS. PARRISH: I'm Christina Parrish. I'm executive director of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council, located on Main Street in historic Springfield. We have met with the Historic Preservation staff and reviewed all the information on this property, and we support their position regarding the windows on this property. I'll go ahead address the siding. In this case, I certainly -- from what I've seen, they've done a good job replacing the wood siding, and I don't think there's any value in pursuing any sort of fine related to that siding. As this gentleman indicated, whoever installed it did a good job and it's appropriate material. On the windows, we sometimes have some of sheets Page to of 0/0/0 0:0: PM Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000 flexibility, depending on where they're located in the house and what the style of windows are. This particular house, because of the architectural style, the windows that exist are very important to the house, and they're very unusual. It's not a one-over-one that can easily be replaced with new windows. And the windows on the side of the house, which were replaced, are quite visible from other houses, and we believe that they should be -- the windows -- the new replacement windows, which are not an appropriate product for the historic district, should be removed and wood windows to match the original windows should be added. I would also like to address some of the representative's comments about the Springfield neighborhood. I think it is very fortunate for his employee that he purchased this house when he did. Property values have risen dramatically in Springfield over the past few years. I just did a presentation for the Rotary Club yesterday and used an example of a house that was renovated, sold for $0,000 in -- and it's probably a smaller, less attractive house than this one. It sold for Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box, Jacksonville, FL 0 (0) -000