l, i \','" ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - Examination No. -.B- ourt File No. / VOLUME (Ottawa-arleton) ONTARIO OURT (GENERAL IVISION) B E T W E E N: JEAN JOLIOEUR et HUGUETTE JOLIOEUR - and - ORPORATION E LA VILLE E HAWKESBURY PLAINTIFFS EFENANT APPEARANES: ********************** ONTINUATION OF THE EXAMINATION FOR ISOVERY OF JEAN JOLIOEUR, pursuant to an appointment made on consent of the parties to be reported by ornell.atana Reporting Services, on Tuesday, ecember,, commencing at the hour of : in the forenoon. *********************** Marc. oucet, for the Plaintiffs Benjamin Marcus,., Barbara McLellan for the efendant Garrett J. ooligan,., for the efendant This Examination was taken down in Stenomask by Pauline ampbell,.v., at Ottawa, Ontario. -
.,,~ ORNELL-ATANA REPORTINGSERVIES, Lisgar St., Suite, Ottawa, ON, KP O Fax: () - NAME OF WITNESS: Jean Jolicoeur INTERPRETER: Elizabeth Burbidge (i) INEX (VOLUME ) ONTINUATION OF THE EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Marcus NUMBER OF PAGES: pages to """'" UNERTAKINGS: pages,,,,,,,,,,,, p. ATE TRANSRIPT ORERE: ecember, ATE TRANSRIPT OMPLETE: February l, I
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - JEAN JOLIOEUR, PREVIOUSLY SWORN: ELIZABETH BURBIGE: Interpreter, sworn ONTINUATION OF EXAMINATION BY M MARUS: M MARUS: Mr. oucet, we had a discussion before the opening of proceedings this morning about certain problems with relation to the evidence that l'm having. You will recall, yesterday, that l discovered, l think for the first time, that the conveyance of the Main Street property to Mr. and Mrs. Jolicoeur for, l believe, $, or $, encompassed not only the Main Street building and land but the vacant land on Tessier Street. As l explained to you at that time, without further information it's impossible to tell what the value of the Main Street property was as of because the purchase price includes two properties. Now, l assume that your client has received documentation which has not been produced, which shows the division of value as between the vacant land and the building on Main Street. What l'd like is an undertaking to produce documentation on that division from whatever source determined the value, and l also require complete documentation on the tax ramifications of the conveyance. l note that l received late, and l don't
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - know -- have you been served with this? M OUET: l received a copy of that supplementary brief, yeso M MARUS: Tab l, apparently, is the affidavit of land transfer tax, the Land Transfer Tax Affidavit, and it is the conveyance from onsultoka to Mr. and Mrs. Jolicoeur as joint tenants and it shows other valuable consideration of $,. And then, in the affidavit by Mr. Jolicoeur, it says: "Transferees will forgive $, of debt owing to them by the transferor", which is onsultoka, and l would like -- l don't have to know ail the intimate details of how the debt occurred and so forth, but l'd like to know what it was, and l'd sort of appreciate your comments on the record after the translator has had an opportunity to inform your client of this. Monsieur oucet, nous avons parlé avant de commencer, ce matin, de problème que j'ai rencontré avec la preuve qu'on a entendu. Je ne m'étais pas rendu compte avant hier qu'en (sic) l'acte de cession comprenait non seulement la propriété sur la rue Main mais également un lot vide sur la rue Tessier. Sans plus de renseignements, il m'est impossible de savoir la valeur de la propriété sur la rue Main en parce que les deux propriétés ensemble avaient une valeur de :
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - $, à l'époque. E. Je me demande si votre client a des documents, démontrant la division de valeur des deux propriétés, l'édifice sur la rue Main et le lot vide sur la rue Tessier. J'aimerais un engagement qu'on me produise des documents provenant de la source qui aurait établi la valeur séparée des deux propriétés, sur la valeur divisée des deux propriétés et, également, les conséquences des documents au sujet des conséquences ou des ramifications de taxe fiscale de l'acte de cession. A l'onglet, il Y a l'affidavit de la taxe de cession, de l'acte de cession, onsultoka. Il semblerait qu'il y a une dette de $, qui a été pardonnée de par ce transfert de propriété. Je n'ai pas besoin de savoir tous les détails sur la dette mais j'aimerais savoir de quoi il s'agissait. M OUET: Thank you. Mr. Marcus, l have no difficulty in giving you an undertaking vis-à-vis the documents that are within the control of Mr. Jolicoeur, dealing with what we referred to, yesterday, as the crystallization. The one caveat l want to make is, to the extent that solicitor-client privilege extends to any documents, until l review those documents, l am not prepared to waive that. Of course, if l'm not prepared
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - to waive privilege, will advise you of that and the particulars as to those documents sufficiently so that you can identify them and we can deal with it at that time if it occurs. You've raised also the consideration or how the $, debt owed to the plaintiffs arose. We don't believe that that is relevant. However, suspect that the answer will be given to you in the documentation, in any event. We can deal with that at that time. expect there will be some sort of a planning memo, which the accountants will have drafted, which sets out in detail the transaction. From my past experience, that generally occurs. M MARUS: ls that Mr. Baril? M OUET: Baril, yeso Okay, so l'il make those inquiries and produce documentation in that regard. But we can take it from there, if there's anything claim privilege on, l'il let you know. *U* M MARUS: What did not explain to you is that, without the information that l've requested, find it's quite impossible to establish a value for the property which is the subject of this litigation at the time of the transfer to the plaintiffs. M OUET: AlI right. acknowledge your comment. l've not seen the documentation. You have
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - E seen, as l have, the facts from International Joliance to Mr. Woods of February th, which is at tab of exhibit. It's evident that from that time, where a transfer for a stated consideration of $, was considered, there was some changes as the consideration was modified. ' make inquiries with the view of determining how that change came about. To the extent that there was a specifie valuation placed on each property, ' make that available to you and tell you how that was determined. l just don't know at this point if it was done. l would hope it had been done at. the time, but l can't tell you that it was because l haven't seen the documentation. M MARUS: Thank you for those undertakings. l think it's probably as important to your client to have this information available as it is for me. M OUET: Let's just go off. (OFF THE REOR ISUSSION) *U* M MARUS: l think it's kind of important, and l don't want to impose. l wondered if you'd mind taking a minute or two just to explain to your client that l'm not doing this out of curiosity to delve into his personal problems, but l'm doing it because of the necessity of establishing the facts in the litigation. o you mind telling him that?
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () -. BY M (OFF THE REOR ISUSSION) MARUS: Now, Mr. Jolicoeur, you are claiming the sum ~ ' of $, for preparation of plans and architectural documents. Monsieur Jolicoeur, vous réclamez le montant de $, pour la préparation de plans et de documents de l'architecte. ould l see, please, the invoices and the receipted invoices for that amount? Est-ce que je peux voir les documents, les factures et les reçus de factures pour ce montant-là? M OUET: Mr. Marcus, those are part of the documents which are being assembled by Mr. Baril and that will be ail part of a damages brief that will be provided to you. l don't believe that there are any invoices in the documents we've produced at this point. M MARUS: WeIl, there are some, which l will deal with like Jovalco. M OUET: Yes, Jovalco. But from Seguin, Matté, l don't believe that there are any. If there are, there are very few. MS. McLELLAN: There are some. M OUET: Yes, one or two, l think. But that's --
. ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - proof of M payment. M M TÉMOIN: Me M M MARUS: OUET: MARUS: OUET: MARUS: OUET: l'd like the complete invoices and You've got the undertaking, sir. Thank you. 'est les détails du $,OOO? Oui, j'ai pris note. (OFF THE REOR ISUSSION BETWEEN M OUET AN HIS LIENT) ould you let me in on that? involvement of Valère Langlois who is an architect. M MARUS: as they pertain to this matter. légaux. BY M MARUS: He says that includes as weil the l don't care who they are as long You are seeking $, for legal fees. Vous réclamez $, pour des frais What fees are those, sir, and where are the accounts for them? *U* comptes? e quels frais s'agit-il et où sont les M OUET: The accounts we haven't produced. l did produce copies of cheques to Mr. Brisebois's firm at tab of volume, which is exhibit. M M MARUS: OUET: Tab? Yes, of exhibit.
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - M MARUS: That's volume, is it? M OUET: That's correct. But the accounts are missing. We will get those to you. M MARUS: WeIl, these cheques, what are they in payment of? What are they for? M OUET: The.first two are retainers, involving Hawkesbury and Bougie, and the last two are actual payments of accounts. = *U~ accounts? M MARUS: And you produced the receipted M OUET: l'il produce the accounts. l don't know if there is a receipted account. It may not be Mr. Brisebois's practice to send a receipted account. l don't know. M MARUS: Okay, in that event -- and without any reflection, l just want proper proof -- then l would like photocopies of the back of each of those cheques. Either one. (OFF THE REOR ISUSSION BETWEEN M OUET AN HIS LIENT) M OUET: You'll get the accounts, in any event, and if the accounts are noted with confirming payment, that will be shown. of the cheques. If not, the front and back *U*. BY M MARUS: The next item that l'm concerned with is a
ORNELL-ATANA REPORTINGSERVIES, Lisgar St., Suite, Ottawa, ON, KP O Fax: () - ~ claim for $,. for overcharged taxes. La prochaine chose qui me préoccupe c'est le montant de $,. pour taxes chargées en trop. ould l please have your evidence on that? Est-ce que je peux voir la preuve que vous avez là-dessus? What volume is he in? M OUET: He's in exhibit, tab. c. BY M MARUS: You're looking at tab. This is a sheet of paper. Tell me what it means. A l'onglet, c'est une feuille de papier. ites-moi ce que ça veut dire. 'est la réconciliation des taxes signée par la responsable des taxes à la ville de Hawkesbury. It's the tax reconciliation signed by -- La responsable du service des taxes de Hawkesbury. -- the person responsible for the tax service in Hawkesbury. On a demandé un détail beaucoup plus élaboré de ça, et la madame a dit "'est tout ce que je peux vous donner." We asked for a much more detailed document than that, and the woman told us that was ail she was
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - able to give us.. o you not have tax bills? You must have received tax bills? ~. Vous n'avez pas de facture de taxe? Oui, oui. Oui, oui. Non, c'est parce qu'on voulait avoir, mettons, une réconciliation directement de la ville, mettons, de tout ça ensemble au lieu d'ajouter tous ces documents. We wanted areconciliation from the city with ail of the amounts together rather than add them separately. What l'd like to know is -- you've called these overcharged taxes. How are they overcharged? e que j'aimerais savoir -- vous avez appelé ça des taxes chargées en trop. omment se faitil que ce sont en trop? M OUET: The basis of the claim, Mr. Marcus, is that, because of the actions of the city, for some or ail of that period, the plaintiffs were unable to effectively deal with th~ir premises. Their ability to proceed with the rental and development of the property was frustrated by the position taken wrongly by your client. Notre position c'est qu'à cause des actions de la ville, mes clients n'ont pas pu procéder à louer
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - les locaux et ils ont été frustrés par les actions nonjustifiées de votre client. M OUET: So we won't provide to you the tax bills, and l understand that your position will be that none of this is collectible and perhaps for part of the period that the inability to proceed or the loss of our client was not caused by your client, and we will have to deal with that. M MARUS: You're anticipating ail sorts of things, Mr. oucet, but for the purposes -- just to reply to your assumption, you may assume it is our position that none of the claims are payable, not just this one. ~. M OUET: l'm not shocked by that. M MARUS: No, l'm sure you're not. BY M MARUS: Now, are these figures for through to at the top of the page, starting with $,. and going down to, $,. -- is that the total realty tax, municipal tax for the year shown? Est-ce que, du premier montant pour de $,. jusqu'en bas de cette colonne,, $,. -- est-ce que ce sont tous les impôts fonciers pour toute cette période-là qui ont été payés? Pour la bâtisse à, oui.
. ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () -. For the building at, yeso So you're claiming ail the taxes that you paid from the time that you acquired the building until? Alors, vous réclamez tous les impôts fonciers que vous avez payés depuis le moment où vous avez acheté l'édifice jusqu'en? Non. No. Si vous additionnez tout ça, vous allez avoir ce montant de réclamation. If you add that ail up, you'll see the amount of the claim. M OUET: There is a misunderstanding here. l think the witness has misunderstood the question. As the claim is stated, the full amount of the taxes are claimed. M MARUS: AlI right, okay. M OUET: That's just how it was stated. BY M MARUS: Okay. You see, l don't know what the second set of figures are. ould you tell me what those are? Les deuxièmes chiffres, est-ce que vous pouvez me dire qu'est-ce que c'est? Parce que je ne sais pas qu'est-ce que c'est. La deuxième colonne. ~
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - E Water charges? pense. Oui, c'est les taxes de eau et égout, je.. Yes, water and sewage. Est-ce que je peux -- Go ahead. Est-ce que je peux faire -- une autre chose c'est que ces taxes-là ici ne représentent qu'une partie, parce qu'il y a les frais et les intérêts qui s'ajoutent. 'est pour ça que vous voyez que ce montant-là semble approché de ça, mais dans le fond il y a une grande différence. l just want to add one thing. This amount, if you add these up, doesn't include everything because there's tax and interest on top of that. That's why, if you add them up, there's a difference between the total and the figure claimed. What is tax and interest? Quels taxe et intérêts? Les taxes et intérêts? Quand j'ai demandé à la ville de me donner, mettons, un relevé complet de toutes ces taxes-là, eux, ils donnent seulement, mettons, le taux de base. Ils ne montrent pas les taxes scolaires et toutes ces choses-là. When l asked the city for a complete
.. ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - detailed statement of the taxes, they only give the base tax. They don't add, for example, the school tax. Alors, on va tout lui donner les détails. But we'll give you ail the details. id l misunderstand your evidence, yesterday, Mr. Jolicoeur, that your company was carrying on business inside this building from the time you acquired it until the time that you sold it? Est-ce que j'ai mal compris, hier, votre témoignage lorsque vous avez dit que votre compagnie faisait affaire dans cet édifice à partir du moment où vous avez acheté l'édifice jusqu'au moment où vous l'avez oui. vendu? Oui, nous avons opéré dans la compagnie, Yes, we operated in the company, yeso Thank you. M OUET: By way of clarification, Mr. Marcus, l think the way he answered the question, yesterday, may have given you the impression that ail the building had to be used. The position was that whatever was stored in this building could be either stored differently, using these racks, or stored at St- Placide if the building was required for other purposes. So basically, whenever we were trying to rent the ' *U~
ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - building, there were always -- whatever was not rented to someone other than Jovalco was available. Jovalco would move -- Joliance, l'm sorry. Joliance would move its goods to accommoda te that. M MARUS: Okay. M OUET: l don't know if you've been left with that impression that there was a requirement for, square feet. That was not the case. If it was not used for other purposes, then Joliance had it available. M MARUS: That's fine, but it was used. M OUET: To a certain extent, sure. M MARUS: Let's turn to Jovalco. M OUET: Tab, exhibit. BY M MARUS:. Tell me, sir, who Jovalco is. qui Jovalco? ites-moi, s'il vous plaît, monsieur, c'est Gaëtan Jovalco est une compagnie, propriété de M. Turgeon.. Gaëtan Jovalco is a company which belongs to Mr. Turgeon. And what does Mr. Turgeon do? What kind of work does the company do? Qu'est-ce qu'il fait, M. Turgeon? Quelle
ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () -... sorte de travail fait cette compagnie? Il est un entrepreneur, un contracteur. He's a contractor. Un entrepreneur, mettons. Il fait le développement de projets. He does project development. What kind of project development? Quelle sorte de développement de projets? Toutes sortes. es projets commercials, industriels, des condos. AlI kinds. ommercial, industrial, condos. Is he a builder? Est-ce qu'il est un -- A contractor? INTERPRETER: WeIl, he said he's a contractor. Est-ce qu'il est un entrepreneur? Oui, oui. Yes, he's acontractor. Il a des outils pour construire, bâtir. Yes, tools to build. es camions. Trucks. Now, look at the invoices of the st of January,, from Jovalco. Regardez la facture du janvier de
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - Jovalco, s'il vous plaît. First of ail, is Mr. Turgeon an engineer? ites-moi, tout d'abord, est-ce que M... Turgeon est ingénieur? Je ne connais pas ses antécédents scolaires. l don't know what his background in education is. What are his professional services? Quels sont ses services professionnels? Les services professionnels qu'il a rendus pour nous, là? His professional services that he rendered for us? Honoraires professionnels. What are the professional services that he rendered? 'est indiqué honoraires professionnels. Quels sont pour vous? les services professionnels qu'il a rendus Alors, il s'est occupé à partir du mois de janvier, suite à la rencontre que nous avons eue avec la ville du janvier, je crois, ou vers le janvier -- city on January th, from January he took care of-- à ce point-là. WeIl, following the meeting we had with the -- du développement, mettons, de la bâtisse
, ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - :.. -- he took care of the development of the building at that point. Il a rencontré des architectes, des ingénieurs, des promoteurs, la ville de Hawkesbury. He met with architects, marketing people, people from the ity of Hawkesbury. Ils ont proposé des plans à la ville de Hawkesbury, que je me souviens, mettons, des plans de développement de condos avec du commercial et des dizaines de plans proposés. They proposed the development plans to the ity of Hawkesbury, plans for condos with also commercial businesses. Tens or dozens of plans were proposed. How much did you and your wife or the predecessor companies pay to Jovalco Group orporation? What's the total amount? Quel est le montant total que vous et votre femme ou bien les compagnies prédécesseurs -- combien est-ce que vous avez payé à la compagnie Jovalco? Quel est le montant total? La somme de ces sept factures-là. The sum of these seven invoices. And these amounts have ail been paid to Jovalco, have they?
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - ~ es montants ont tous été versés à Jovalco? mon Ils ont été payés par une contrepartie de travail.. They were paid in exchange for my work. ould you explain that to me, please? Est-ce que vous pouvez m'expliquer ça, s'il vous plaît? Hier, j'ai expliqué que je me suis impliqué. dans le financement et à mettre en place le lub. Yesterday, l explained that l was involved in the financing and the setting up of the lub. onc, à partir du mois de novembre -- même avant ça, octobre, j'ai mis en place le lub, en somme beaucoup de services et, lorsque nous avons fait la transaction finale, notre montant était près de ce montant et nous avons fait un compte à compte. From November or even earlier than that, October, we set up the lub and provided many services. At the end of that period, when we looked at our amount as opposed to their amount they were similar and the one forgave the other. id you render invoices to Jovalco? Est-ce que vous avez produit des factures pour Jovalco? Oui.
ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - : Yeso. ould l see them, please? Est-ce que je peux les voir, s'il vous plaît? Elles ne sont pas ici, mais on va vous donner ça. you. They're not here but we'll give them to M OUET: We'll provide that. M MARUS: l take it that it goes without *U' saying that the examination will remain open pending the production of the undertakings. M OUET: ertainly. Il va sans dire que l'interrogatoire n'aura pas pris fin avant que tous ces documents soient produits. TÉMOIN: Oui. Yeso M OUET: What l mean by that, Mr. Marcus, is you're going to be free to examine on the answers of the undertakings, including all the documentation. l expect you will cover during these examinations what you can with the documentation that we have, basically the brief of documents. For damages, it will definitely be a subject of examination.
ORNELL.ATANA. Fax: () - M MARUS: At the rate we're going -- weil -- M OUET: Who knows. M MARUS: l don't know that we're going to even finish by tomorrow because of, you know, the unexpected answers that arise. BY M MARUS: Would you please explain to me again, because l didn't understand your evidence, as to what you did on behalf of Jovalco for nearly $,OOO? Est-ce que vous pouvez me l'expliquer encore, parce que je n'ai pas très bien compris ce que vous avez fait pour Jovalco qui valait un montant de $,OOO? Oui. Yeso J'ai organisé le lub. l organized lub. J'ai organisé tous les contrats d'emploi pour le lub. l set up ail the employment contracts for lub. J'ai fait la transaction avec le lub Atlantis qui a été jumelé avec le lub. l completed the transaction with the lub Atlantis which was twinned with lub.
ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () -!:.. Yes? Oui? Where is Atlantis? Où se trouve Atlantis? Vous n'avez pas ça dans ça? Mais vous l'avez peut-être dans les siens. We don't have that -- Atlantis is the Lacroix's club, isn't it? Atlantis c'est le club de Lacroix? Oui. Yeso Ça c'est une petite partie de rien, ça. That was just a very small part. of exhibit. M OUET: The witness is referring ta tab M MARUS: What is he referring to? What about it? M OUET: He said that's a small part of his involvement in the matter. TÉMOIN: J'ai fait l'incorporation du lub. l incorporated lub. TÉMOIN: e mémoire. From memory. TÉMOIN: Il Y a trois mois de travail dans ça. There were three months of work in ail
, ORNELL.ATANA REPORTING SERVIES, Lisgar St.,Suite, Ottawa, ON, KP O Fax: () - IE.. that. BY M MARUS: id you spend the entire three months working on this, is that what you're saying? Vous avez passé trois mois entiers à travailler là-dessus? Pas heures par jour mais énormément d'heures. Not hours a day but a huge number of hours. Et aussi des.rencontres, des rencontres avec des locataires potentiels de la bâtisse. Also meetings with potential tenants of the building. J'ai fait des baux pour ces locataires potentiels. l drew up leases for these potential tenants. J'ai assisté à plusieurs rencontres, mettons, avec ces locataires-là et des financiers. l attended several meetings with those tenants and financiers. Sorry. Are these tenants for Main Street? Est-ce que vous parlez de locataires pour la rue Main?
ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - Oui. ~. Yeso Are these tenants for your own building that you're talking about? Pour votre propre édifice? Mais, vous savez, ma propre édifice qui était vendu. But my building which had been sold.. When was your building sold, sir? Quand est-ce que votre édifice a été vendu?. L'entente a commencé à partir du de janvier qu'on a parlé,. The agreement was made -- l think it was the th of January,. possession a eu lieu? On a produit l'exhibit... It was produced under exhibit... When did the transfer take place? Quand est-ce que le transfert, la On a montré, hier, en avril, si je me souviens. l think l showed, yesterday, in April ', if l recall. guessing M here. OUET: It wasn't April. l don't want him
,. ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - E MS. McLELLAN: Tab, the abstracto April th,. Ça c'est l'extrait de registre. 'est le avril. M OUET: Okay, l stand corrected. It was April. Sorry. M M MARUS: OUET: o you want to see it? No. Go ahead. Thank you. MS. McLELLAN: On the second page. A la deuxième page. MS. McLELLAN: euxième BY M MARUS: The second item? item?. When do you say you performed ail this work, sir? Alors, quand dites-vous avoir fait tout ce travail, monsieur? Septembre, octobre. A partir de septembre - - à partir de septembre. September, October. Starting in September.. Yes? Oui? And continuing till? Et jusqu'à quel moment?
- ~.. ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - November of? Ah, jusqu'à -- ah, en avril. WeIl, until April '. WeIl, l thought you said three months. Je pensais que vous aviez dit trois mois. Trois mois très actif. Three months of very active work. Was most of the work September, October and Est-ce que le gros du travail a été fait en septembre, octobre, novembre? ~ janvier, Non. Le gros a été fait en décembre, février. No. The major part of the work was done in. ecember, January, February. building? écembre. Janvier, février. ecember '. January and February '. When you were still the owner of the Lorsque vous étiez encore le propriétaire? Oui, mais par convention, mettons, lui était là. La transaction aurait pu se faire n'importe quel temps avant. Yes, but by agreement he was there. The transaction could have taken place at any time before that.
.,- ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () -. WeIl, the transaction could have taken place.. any time before that, but the transaction in fact took place in ', April of ', did it not? La transaction aurait pu se faire n'importe quand avant ça, mais en fait la transaction elle s'est faite en avril, n'est~ce pas? Oui. Yeso Et c'est pour ça que j'ai aidé le maximum, mettons, à ce que la transaction se fasse. And that's why helped as much as could to make sure that the transaction would take place. l'onglet? Now, would you look at tab? Est-ce que vous voulez bien regarder à e quel exhibit? Which exhibit? Exhibit number. La pièce numéro. Is this a document signed at the th of ecember of between lub Squash Fitness and Jovalco Group orporation? Est-ce que c'est un document signé, le décembre, entre lub Squash Fitness et Jovalco Group orporation?
, Jr ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - :... Oui. Yeso By the way, you sa id you were the incorporator of lub Squash Fitness Incorporated? Vous avez dit que c'est vous qui avez incorporé le lub Squash Fitness incorporé? Oui. Yeso When you incorporated, how many directors were there? Lorsque vous l'avez incorporé, il y avait combien de directeurs? Je m'en souv~ens pas. Je pense que c'est seulement un, mais je me souviens pas. Il faudrait vérifier. but l'd have to check. l think l'd like ta see the transmittal -- did you incorporate through a lawyer? avocat? Non. No. l don't recall. l think there was only one Est-ce que vous avez incorporé à travers un Je l'ai fait directement avec Marque d'or. l did it directly with Marque d'or.
-, ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () -. l'd like to see the letter of transmittal of the incorporation and the letters patent, please. translation INTERPRETER: l'm not sure what the French is of letter of transmittal. WeIl, let me explain it. The government department that incorporated sends a letter out that says "Here are your letters patent". That's what l want, and the letters patent. J'aimerais voir la lettre qu'envoie le gouvernement ainsi que les lettres patentes ou les articles de l'incorporation. As weil as the land transfer tax affidavits. Ainsi que les affidavits de transfert. M OUET: If it's still within his possession, we will produce it. That's not a problem. *U* S'il les a encore en sa possession, on va les produire. e n'est pas un problème. TÉMOIN: Il n'y a pas de problème à ça. J'ai toutes les factures de tout ça. ail of that. l have ail the invoices and everything from Me OUET: oncernant l'incorporation de cette compagnie, ce qu'il demande c'est la lettre qui vous serait parvenue du département des incorporations ainsi que les statuts constitutifs de la compagnie.
.." ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () -. MS. McLELLAN: What is Marque d'or? M OUET: Marque d'or is a company that does corporate searches. You can reserve the na me. Similar to ye and urham. They do a similar service. So I take it from the witness.that what he did is he requested from Marque d'or to reserve the name lub Squash Fitness Inc. With that document plus the forms you have to file with the government, you get the incorporation. MS. McLELLAN: So it's more than just a registered name? M MARUS: It's an incorporation. M OUET: This is a company. This is a separate company. TÉMOIN: La recherche a été faite. J'ai payé. pour la recherche pour le nom et l'incorporation a été faite au complet par Marque d'or. The title was searched and the incorporation was done by Marque d'or -- TÉMOIN: Et j'ai payé pour tout ça. -- and I paid for ail of that. BY M MARUS: Now, in the document that l've referred to at tab, it is an agreement, is it not, between Jovalco and lub, to your attention, for certain
. \' f. ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - '.. work to be carried out in the building at Main Street in Hawkesbury? Le document auquel je vous ai demandé de vous référer à l'onglet est une entente, n'est-ce pas, entre Jovalco et lub, à votre attention, qui mentionne du travail à être effectué sur cet édifice sur la rue Main à Hawkesbury? Oui. Yeso And was that work done, sir? Est-ce que ces travaux ont été effectués? Oui. Yeso Was it done by Jovalco? Est-ce que c'est Jovalco qui a fait ces travaux? Mais vous savez -- oui. You know -- yeso. s there a problem? Was it done by Jovalco? Est-ce qu'il y a un problème? Est-ce que c'est Jovalco qui l'a fait? Bien, c'est parce que Jovalco a peut-être pris des sous-contracteurs, vous savez. t's because Jovalco may have hired sub- contractors.
' ln t, i! fornellatana el: () - Fax: () -!. i : i!!!. i ;. id Jovalco submit an account to either you or to lub for the $,? Est-ce que Jovalco a soumis un état de compte soit à vous, soit au lub pour les $,? please? Oui, oui. Yeso id you pay that amount? L'avez-vous payé, ce montant-là? Oui. Yeso ould l see the documentation for that, Est-ce que je peux voir les documents pour :. cette transaction, s'il vous plaît? M OUET: Yes, we will give you the invoices and proof of payment. *U* On vous donnera les factures ainsi que les preuves de paiements. BY M MARUS: Now, when was the work completed that's encompassed in this agreement we've just spoken about? Quand est-ce que les travaux ont été complétés, les travaux qui sont englobés dans cette entente qu'on vient de voir? L'ouverture s'est fait la semaine passée.
, ÇORNELLeATANA Fax: () - Et parmis les derniers items, mettons, qui ont été finalisés dans le projet, c'était les squash. Alors, j'imagine que -- quand est-ce que c'était l'ouverture donc? The opening was last week. So the last items which were the squash courts -- now, when was the opening? onc l'ouverture s'est fait le novembre.. The opening was November nd. Et si je me souviens, le dernier item, mettons, du contrat, les squash, c'était peut-être une semaine, dix jours ou deux semaines avant l'ouverture. The opening was November nd. If l recall, the last items, which were the squash courts, were completed one week, 'ten days, two weeks before the opening. When did you pay the $,OOO? Quand avez-vous payé les $,OOO? Payé $,OOO? Paid $,OOO? Oui, au fur et à mesure que les factures, mettons, étaient présentées par Jovalco, là. As the invoices were coming from Jovalco. onc, en commençant en janvier et puis s'échelonnant.
- ia' ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () -.. Starting in January ' and then one by one after that, progressively. l hope l'm not the only one who's confused by ail this. But let's keep on. Qu'est-ce qu'il a dit? INTERPRETE: Il a dit qu'il espère qu'il n'est pas le seul à être confus par tout ça. Moi, je ne suis pas. l' m not. 'est un très beau projet. It's a beautiful project. id you sell lub Squash Fitness Incorporated to somebody? Est-ce que vous avez vendu le lub Squash Fitness à quelqu'un? Ah oui. Le lub devait nécessairement, mettons, être vendu à M. Turgeon. Yes, lub had to be sold to Mr. Turgeon. omme le fait foi l'exhibit.. As is attested in exhibit. M OUET: Tab ' in exhibit. BY M MARUS: How much did you sell it for? Vous l'avez vendu pour combien?
. ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - Un dollar. One dollar. M OUET: Would you like me to give you a short summary which may help you? M MARUS: So long as your witness adopts the information. But l must confess that l'm having a small amount of difficulty. He gets the building and $, for one dollar. M OUET: But the missing part of that puzzle is he also gets the debt. Mr. Jolicoeur told us yesterday that he secured financing for the project, which was something Mr. Turgeon had difficulty in doing. So Mr. Jolicoeur secured the financing for this improvement, had control of Squash, which had the loan, and his contract with Jovalco was done by Jovalco. M MARUS: That's this Royal Bank -- there's a document from the Royal Bank in there. Is that the financing? M OUET: l believe so. M MARUS: How much was the financing? TÉMOIN: Est-ce qu'il demande le montant du financement? Are you asking the amount of the financing? eux cent cinquante. Two hundred and fifty.
"... ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - ~. $,? BY M MARUS: Is there anything anywhere that says Est-ce que c'est indiqué quelque part? M OUET: Tab speaks of it.. lend $,? BY M MARUS: And it's the Royal Bank. id the Royal Bank $,O? Est-ce que la Banque Royale a prêté Oui. Yeso Un P.P.E. de $,. Yes, a P.P.!. (sic) of $,. INTERPRETER: l don't know what -- M OUET: A small business loan. A small business loan. TÉMOIN: Pour faire le projet de tout ce qu'on a vu tantôt, le contrat. To complete the project, what we saw earlier on the contract. M OUET: An S.B.L. was obtained to finance the con tract. M MARUS: A what? M OUET: S.B.L., small business loan.
o., ORNELL.ATANA el: () - Fax: () - M MARUS: Oh yes, okay. For $,. M OUET: Yes, sir. BY M MARUS:. id Mr. Jolicoeur obtain that? Est-ce que M. Jolicoeur a obtenu ce montant? Oui, oui. Yeso. please? ould l see the documentation of that,. Est-ce que je peux voir les documents làdessus, s'il vous plaît? M OUET: You cano We will undertake to provide whatever documents he has regarding the securing of the financing. *U* M MARUS: It's not necessarily what he has but what he can get as weil. M OUET: We'll see what he has and l'il take it from there. BY M MARUS: Now, Mr. Jolicoeur, did you receive the $, from the Royal Bank? Monsieur Jolicoeur, est-ce que vous avez reçu les $, de la Banque Royale? Bon, quand vous dites "vous", vous parlez de
'. (pornell-atana el: () - Fax: () -. U lub? lub? When you say "you", you're talking about Werén't you lub? Vous n'étie~ pas le lub? Bien, c'est ça que j'veux dire. That's what l mean. 'est le lub qui a fait le P.P.E., mais.. dans lequel c'était moi qui avais fait la promotion, mis de l'avant le lub. Just a minute, we're getting te ch ni cal. When you saidyou paid the $,, you meant that lub paid the $,. Ici, ça devient un peu technique. Vous avez dit que vous avez payé les $,. En fait, vous vouliez dire que le lub a payé les $,OOO? marquée ici, lub. lub. Oui. Yeso 'est parce que l'entente est bel et bien It's because it's stated on the agreement, AlI right. J'ai peut-être pas compris sa question. Perhaps l didn't understand the question.
., ORNELL-ATANA el: () - Fax: () -. l. Tell me if l''m wrong. lub borrowed $, from the Royal Bank. lub paid Jovalco $, plus G.S.T. for the work that was done. Is that correct? orrigez-moi si j'ai tort. Mais le lub a emprunté $, de la Banque Royale. Le lub a payé Jovalco $, plus la T.P.S. pour les travaux effectués. 'est correct. That's correct. Okay. Now, have a look at tab. Regardez l'qnglet. The second-iast paragraph -- L'avant-dernier paragraphe -- What's he saying? M OUET: He was just looking at the letter, reading the first paragraph. TÉMOIN: Est-ce que vous voulez que j'explique? o you want me to explain? the -- M MARUS: l'm having difficulty figuring out M OUET: l don't know what he's getting at in paragraph. It's up to you if you want to hear it. M MARUS: Sure, l want to hear as much as l can because l just don't understand what's happening
u. ORNELL-ATANA el: () - Fax: () - u ~ here. TÉMOIN: omme Me Marcus demandait tantôt, les services, mettons, que j'ai fournis à Jovalco, au lub, mettons, et tout ça -- As Mr. Marcus was asking me earlier about U the services that I rendered for Jovalco and lub and ail that -- TÉMOIN: -- le premier paragraphe ici fait justement mention, mettons, que je lui ai fourni le rapport de paye pour la semaine, mettons, finissant et ainsi de suite là. This let ter indicates in the first paragraph, for example, that the pay report was included for the week ending February th and so on. BY M MARUS:. What is a pay report? 'est quoi le rapport de paye? Toute la paye.. The payroll. The whole payroll. For what? Pourquoi? For the club? Est-ce que c'est pour le club? Oui, oui. Yes, yeso
, ORNELL-ATANA el: () - Fax: () -. Le lub, oui. Yes, for lub. Is this for the work that was done or is this for employees at the club? Est-ce que c'est pour le travail qui avait été fait ou pour les employés du club? 'est ça. 'est ma contribution, qu'est-ce que j'ai dit tantôt. Il m'a demandé qu'est-ce que j'avais fait pour $,. On en a un exemple pratique là. It's my contribution. You'd asked me earlier on what l did for $,. This is a practical example of that.. those AlI right. And you're going to produce documents. Et vous allez me produire ces documents. Le temps qui a été pris pour faire ça. The time it took to do that.. It's the same thing. M OUET: That's a component of what he did. l think that's what he's getting at, what was done. TÉMOIN: 'est ce que j'ai dit. BY M MARUS:. have that. Now, the th of February -- ' see if l Now, in your tab --
U, t ORNELL.ATANA el: () - Fax: () - A votre onglet -- -- the th of February, as l read the last paragraph on page number, you're saying the Royal Bank has offered a loan, a mort gage loan of $, amortized for years, and " asked that this loan be amortized for years". And la lettre du février, je lis au dernier paragraphe à la deuxième page, la Banque Royale a offert un prêt hypothécaire de $, sur une période de ans et "j'ai demandé que la période soit de ans plutôt que de J:O ans." s that correct? N'est-ce pas? s that what it says? Est-ce que c'est ce qui est indiqué?. Oui, oui. Yeso Okay. Now, would you refer then to the letter of the th of February from onsultoka? Est-ce que vous voulez bien alors vous référer à la lettre du février de onsultoka? Tell me what,the second-iast paragraph says. ites-moi ce qui est indiqué dans l'avant- dernier paragraphe. elui qui commence par "ce qui"?
. " ORNELL.ATANA el: () - Fax: () - I.. The one which starts "en ce qui"? Yeso WeIl, if he's going to read it, you may as weil tell me what it says. Non, non, c'est correct. Je le lis là. WeIl, l can read it. WeIl, he can read it in French and l won't be any farther ahead. an you help us out there? M OUET: Yeso l think what was going on at that point was restructuring the debt of Squash Fitness. what this -- that M MARUS: Yeso What does this paragraph say? TÉMOIN: Je peux y aller, là? M OUET: It's the steps that he took. M MARUS: an you put it on the record as to M OUET: You want basically a translation of paragraph? M MARUS: pretty much, yes, because -- let me l. ask you this. BY M MARUS: id a mortgage go on for $,OOO? Est-ce qu'il y a eu une hypothèque de $,OOO? ans les faits, non. ln fact, no, there wasn't.
'. ORNELL-ATANA el: () - Fax: () -. Was there a mortgage on for $,OOO? $,OOO? Est-ce qu'il y avait une hypothèque de. Vous savez, là vous me demandez de répondre pour des gestes qui n'ont pas été posés par moi. that You're asking me to answer about things were not done by myself. id you not arrange the mortgage? idn't you tell me you arranged the financing? Est-ce que ce n'est pas vous qui avez fait les arrangements pour le financement? Vous n'avez pas dit ça? 'est exactement ce que tout ça prouve. That is exaqtly what is proved by this. J'ai fait tout le financement. Bien, j'ai proposé tout le financement, mettons, pour faire le projet global pour arriver à cette structure-là et ainsi de suite. l looked after ail the financing and the financing proposais for the global project. Il était alentour de $,. This was in the amount of around $,. ans ça -- est-ce que je peux me servir de ça pour expliquer? an l use this to explain?
, " el: () - Fax: () - ORNELLoATANA REPORTING SERVIES, Lisgar St.. Suite, Ottawa, ON, KP O ans ça il y avait une hypothèque de $,. There was a mortgage of $,. Et il y avait deux P.P.E. de $,. And there were two small business loans of $,. $, ça? e qui serait quoi? Est-ce que ça ferait oes that make $,OOO? Nine hundred _- neuf cent mille.. two-fifty? That makes nine hundred, $,. Just a minute. Two at two-fifty or one at Il Y avait deux à deux cent cinquante? eux à deux-cinquante.. Two at two-fifty. that's $l-million. Ça fait un million et cinquante mille. dedans ça. Bon, il y avait un fonds de roulement inclu ' There was a.-- INTERPRETER: l'm not sure what the translation is of that, fonds de roulement. Mais je pourrais donner toute la proposition, la proposition financière si ils veulent.
J (t'ornell-atana lei: () - Fax: () -. But l can explain the whole financial proposal to you if you wish. Yes, please. Oui, s'il vous plaît. Would you ask him to do it in little chunks, please? petites Est-ce que vous pouvez le faire juste en parties? Ah, vous voulez dire que je le fasse ici? o you want me to do it right now? M OUET: l think there's a written document. TÉMOIN: Oui, un gros document. Yes, there's a long document. M MARUS: Let's take a five-minute break. On va prendre une pause de cinq minutes. (SHORT REESS) BY M MARUS:. Who is Mr. Pouts? 'est qui M. Pouts?. M. Pouts est la personne qui prépare dans la forme finale les présentations financières. Mr. Pouts is the person who presents the final format of the financial presentations. What is his occupation and where is he
- ORNELL-ATANA el: () - Fax: () - O located? situé? Quel est son métier et où est-ce qu'il est. Il est situé à Outremont, Montréal. He's located in Outremont in Montreal. Il est le président d'une compagnie qui s'appelle onsult-action Financement. He is the president of a company which is called onsult-action Financing. Et il fait des projets de financement comme ça. And he puts together financing projects like that. M OUET: He's a business broker, business consultant. BY M MARUS: Now, earlier, we were discussing your claim for legal fees. On parlait tout à l'heure de votre réclamation pour frais légaux. And we have an undertaking that you're going to produce the accounts. But are any of the legal fees that you are claiming -- do they arise from the transfer of the property through Mr. Bolduc at Woods Lapalme on the transfer from onsultoka to your wife and yourself?
, J ", ""ORNELL-ATANA REPORTING SERVIES, Lisgar S., Suite, Ottawa, ON, KP O, el: () - Fax: () -. M OUET: The answer is no. ans votre engagement vous avez promis de produire les états de compte pour prouver les frais légaux. ansees frais légaux est-ce qu'il y en a qui relève de l'acte de cession, du transfert de propriété qui avait été fait avec Bolduc pour Woods Lapalme lorsque la propriété a été transférée de onsultoka à vous et votre femme? TÉMOIN: Non, aucun. No, none of them. (OFF THE REOR ISUSSION) M OUET: You're correct, Mr. Marcus, that what you're looking for is advice to the client as to the permitted uses under the zoning, i.e. ommercial-l, Industrial-. The two letters from Mr. Woods are silent on that point. That's my reading of them, anyway. M MARUS: Thank you. He says zonage but he doesn't deal with zonage. Okay, that's fine. M OUET: And he deals with -- the zoning bylaws, l think, describe the set-backs. So he deals with that aspect but not the permitted use. BY M MARUS: Who is Jean Lacroix? 'est qui Jean Lacroix? Jean Lacroix est le propriétaire du lub
c ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - Atlantis à Hawkesbury. c... Jean Lacroix is the owner of the Atlantis lub in Hawkesbury. Was Mr. Lacroix the person or Mr. Lacroix's company the entity that you sold the building ta? Est-ce que c'est à M. Lacroix ou à sa compagnie que vous avez vendu l'édifice? Je pourrais pas dire, là. l couldn't say. J'ai pas, mettons, la transaction finale faite chez Me Raymond Lachapelle pour savoir qui est la compagnie qui achète. Ça peut être une possibilité. l don't have the final transaction prepared with Raymond Lachapelle, stating what the company is, but it's possible. What's possile? Qu'est-ce qui est possible? Que cette transaction-là a pu, mettons, finalement aboutir dans cette compagnie-là? That the transaction may have ended up with that company. id you ever negotiate with Mr. Lacroix for the sale of the building? Est-ce que vous avez jamais négocié avec M. Lacroix pour la vente de l'édifice?
o., " ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - c c c.. soit? Pas pour la vente de la bâtisse, non. Not for the sale of the building, no. What did you negotiate with him for? Vous avez négocié avec lui pour quoi que ce Oui, j'ai négocié avec M. Lacroix pour l'achat du lub Atlantis qui était une compagnie à numéro dont je me souviens pas. Yes, l negotiated with Mr. Lacroix for the purchase of the Atlantis lub which is a numbered company. l'm not sure what number. For the purchase of the Atlantis lub? Pour l'achat du lub Atlantis? Oui. Yeso MS. McLELLAN: Atlantis? u lub Atlantis? TÉMOIN: Oui. Yeso TÉMOIN: Est-ce que vous voulez que j'explique un peu plus? o you want me to explain a bit more? M MARUS: Yes please. " Oui, s'il vous plaît. TÉMOIN: Bon, est-ce que je peux me référer à un
,, ' ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - document qu'on a déjà dit ici? an l refer to a document we've already seen here? M MARUS: Sure. Oui, absolument. [ TÉMOIN: La lettre qu'on parlait tantôt, c'était dans le, ou à peu près? The let ter we saw earlier, l think, was under or. Me OUET: ent soixante-seize. One seventy-six. Me OUET: Est-ce que c'est ça? s that it? TÉMOIN: Bon, cette lettre-là donne un sommaire de mes activités avec Gaëtan Turgeon à partir d'une certaine période et ce que j'ai fait pour lui. This letter summarizes the activities with Mr. Gaëtan Turgeon from a certain period, what l did for him. TÉMOIN: Et le premier paragraphe de la page en haut -- And the top of page, in the first paragraph -- TÉMOIN: -- on mentionne spécifiquement que la transaction avec le gym de Jean Lacroix est terminée. I
., ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - -- it's mentioned that the transaction concerning Jean Lacroix's gym is terminated or is completed. TÉMOIN: Alors, dans un premier temps, le lub Atlantis a été acheté par le lub -- First of ail, lub Atlantis was bought by lub. TÉMOIN: -- dans lequel j'étais encore, mettons, à ce moment-là. And l was still involved -- TÉMOIN: J'ai effectué donc les transactions. -- l was still at that time, so l looked after the transaction. TÉMOIN: Et finalement, mettons, comme la lettre le mentionne un peu plus tôt, que toutes les transactions qui se faisaient étaient pour le bénéfice, finalement, de Gaëtan Turgeon -- And as l mentioned earlier, ail the transactions l was looking after were, finally, for the benefit of Gaëtan Turgeon. [ TÉMOIN: Alors, dans le processus à un moment donné, je l'sais pas là qui a été l'acheteur de la bâtisse. Ça se peut que la compagnie, mettons, de Atlantis a pu être l'acheteur, mettons, de notre bâtisse.
[, ; ORNELL.ATANA Fax: () - Finally, at one point l don't know who the final buyer was of the building. It's possible that it was Atlantis that was the final purchaser of the building. TÉMOIN: Mais de l'ensemble, mettons, de la transaction qui a été faite chez le notaire Raymond Lachapelle, on peut voir toutes ces considérations. But if you look at the whole of the transaction completed within Notary Raymond Lachapelle, we can see ail of these details. M OUET: Bought out the competition. Vous avez acheté la compétition. TÉMOIN: Oui, ça faisait partie de l'ensemble. Tout ça a été un projet d'ensemble. Yes, ail of that was one, part of one [ [ project. TÉMOIN: Et c'est pour ça que mes activités, mettons, avec Gaëtan Turgeon et toutes ces choses-là ont fait partie, mettons, d'un travail de consultation. That's why ail of my activities with Gaëtan [. Turgeon were part of consulting. BY M MARU: What did you get out of ail this? ça? Et qu'est-ce que vous avez reçu pour tout
~t ORNELL-ATANA Fax: () - [J [J [ '.. Me défaire de ma bâtisse à Hawkesbury. Get rid of my building in Hawkesbury. 'est impensable, mais c'est une aberration incroyable. Oui, je suis frustré. It's unthinkable. 'est ça, oui. Aller dans tant de détours pour avoir, mettons, simplement -- j'aurais aimé, désiré, mettons, vendre une bâtisse et être payé, mettons, tout simplement. To have to go through ail these different sort of details -- l would have liked to just have been able to sell the building and be paid for it. What about the two houses that your brotherin-law bought, do you still own those? Les deux maisons que votre beau-frère a achetées, est-ce que vous les avez toujours? Oui. Yeso Have you tried to sell those? Est-ce que vous avez essayé de les vendre? Bon. Je me réfère encore à ces documentslà. Referring again to those documents Ils font partie de l'ensemble. Ils doivent, éventuellement, être acquis pour faire l'ensemble du