CHRISTOPHER BOLLEN IN CONVERSATION WITH SETH PRICE Jnury 2012 Christopher Bollen: Your work consistently plys off the ide of presence nd bsence, or presence by mens of bsence. In your series of gestlt silhouettes, for exmple, it s the voids tht ctully come to represent the tngible figures of the work. Or tke your vcuum forms, which crry the shpe of n object tht s no longer present, s if these works hold the ghost of the item. If we were to red your work biogrphiclly, could we sy tht there is some refusl on your prt to give yourself over to the object, to be n rtist who mkes concrete things, insted of voids? Seth Price: [lughs] Mybe. It s funny how you figure out your own work fter the fct. You re right, so much of my work is bout fltness nd bsence. But it s bout mteril, too. Tht s lwys been importnt. Whether it s rough nd industril or totlly shiny, with this ide of the perfect surfce or product. I would sy I lwys hd problem with the iconic imge, or the imge per se. And mybe I still do. I strted out wnting to work with writing nd music nd video. And tht my hve led me to void certin kind of imge mking, nd I ended up working with bsences. But I ws lwys interested in mterility. b BOLLEN / 12. Different Kinds of Art, 2004, vcuum-formed high-impct polystyrene b. Anthropomorphic Scene, 2008, burled Vvon redwood lminted to dimond crylic
CB: And now you re collborting with menswer designer, ctully designing clothes. SP: Yes, nd tht s wht s been interesting bout working with fshion. It is lmost totlly mterilist pursuit. The finl product is bout the fbric, the trim, the cut. So even when designer presents clothes within nrrtive, like, This is my hobo collection, or whtever, everyone wtching the show is more concerned with the detils of the clothes. Wht people re pying ttention to is two buttons insted of three, or how the fbric drpes. The nrrtive informtion the designer supplies My collection is referencing 1930s hberdshery tht s just historicl footnotes, no one gets hung up on it. Wheres in the rt world people cn get very hung up on the concept, more so thn on the mteril. CB: Right. SP: So it s prllel world to rt, in tht it s lso ll bout mteril, concept, nd distribution. And it s lso bsed on the circultion of luxury goods; it rides this swell of money nd tries to keep its utonomy somehow, if it s ny good. But there s different understnding in fshion of wht s on offer. People dive in, they re ffirmtive of the concepts or nrrtives in show, but they don t tke those things so seriously becuse they re more interested in the mteril detils nd wht those choices indicte. CB: Fshion is lwys going to be bout the detils, becuse t the end of the dy there re only so mny wys tht designer cn remke the sme grment. Especilly in menswer, where it s very difficult to redesign suit so tht it looks rdiclly different every seson. So the focus hs to be on the slightest ltertions, the minuscule chnges in mteril nd form. Otherwise the whole industry would go down the drin. Clothes re pretty stndrd nd limited, just like humn bodies re. BOLLEN /. Comptibility Mode, 2012, pen on pper 14
SP: Yeh. A bomber jcket is cliché tht never goes out of style. It gets reinvented every couple of yers. Every designer mkes one. At this point, the elsticity of the thing is so gret tht ny jcket could be clled bomber. Whtever history the grment hs is just n essence you kind of spry on. CB: You weren t ferful bout stepping into the world of fshion? Mny rtists consider fshion to exist just beyond the River Styx in terms of culturl vlue. Well, I guess you ren t lunching the Seth Price brnd. SP: I kind of m. [lughs] At document it will be clothes for sle. CB: So if I were wering Seth Price, wht would I hve on? SP: It consists of seven grments: trench cot, bomber, flight suit, giters, nd some other pieces. It s militry. They re going to be mde out of white cnvs, with security ptterns on the lining. CB: How did it ll strt? SP: Well, lst spring one of my vcuum-formed bomber jckets ws bought by MoMA. Tht piece ws supposed to be n iconic imge, but you know, it s such shock to feel tht ll the loose ends re being tied up. All of the things tht didn t mke sense strt being nmed. You see tht people behind the scenes hve been stitching you into the fbric of your time. I cn t explin it. But I wnted to tke the bomber jcket bck from the museum to sell it out, in wy by remking it. So the collection is llowing me to pursue tht. BOLLEN / 16. Vintge Bomber, 2008, utomotive urethne pint on vcuumformed high-impct polystyrene b. Line sheet for the Spring/ Summer 2012 (SS12) collection, designed with Tim Hmilton: Bomber Jcket, Infntry Poncho, Field Giter, Prtrooper Pnts, Officer s Trench, Btwing Sniper Jcket, Flight Suit b
CB: How did you get in touch with Tim Hmilton? SP: He got in touch with me. Initilly he sked me to mke video for fshion presenttion. Tht ws lst fll, so tht would hve been, let s see, the Spring/Summer 2012 collection. The fshion clendr is relly schizophrenic. So his request ws, Do you wnt to crete video bckdrop for my show? nd I ws completely uninterested. Becuse tht s wht I do lredy. You show up someplce nd instll video nd tht s n rt show. But my summer ws empty, so I sid, No, but I would like to design clothes, thinking it ws shot in the drk. But he wnted to meet. I wnted to do the white cnvs bomber, nd he ws into tht, nd he proposed doing other pieces. You know, we got excited bout working together. So it becme this militry collection. I ve been thinking bout how much sportswer is indebted to militry ger, nd working with the bomber s n imge, becuse it s so coded, nd Tim s lwys been into rmy stuff. He hs these gret reference books, these militry-clothing collectors guides. Strnge books. I strted getting relly involved with the detils, nd we d go bck nd forth bout, like, dolmn sleeves. BOLLEN /. Working drwing, 2012, pencil on pper 18
CB: But this erly collbortion with Tim wsn t exctly rt yet, ws it? SP: No. I ws just exploring nother wy of producing, or thinking bout nother industry. It ws for fun. But then I mde proposl for document tht ws rejected, nd suddenly it ws fll nd I ws trying to figure out wht to do, nd I thought: Wit minute, I m lredy mking Spring/Summer 2012 clothes, nd here I m supposed to be coming up with Spring/Summer 2012 rt. It s perfect, I cn just roll it ll up. CB: How did envelopes become n influence in the design process? SP: Lst summer I ws kind of idly working on these envelope designs, just little sketches bsed on security ptterns. I ve been working with envelopes for couple of yers lredy. I ws thinking bout how n envelope is single sheet of mteril tht s cut to pttern, printed on the inside, nd then folded nd ttched to contin n object or, in the cse of security envelope, sensitive finncil dt, presumbly, which you hve to gurd from sight by use of repeting pttern. And jcket is the sme, it s essentilly piece of fbric tht, hving been cut, is folded, rrnged, ttched; like n envelope, it tkes you plces. CB: And like n envelope, jcket concels sensitive mteril tht is often gurded from sight by corporte logos. SP: Right. So when we were plnning out the grment liners, it mde sense to me to use security ptterns. And I felt like I could compile ll these somewht over-the-top ides in wy tht I wouldn t do in my rt. I men, to put corporte logo inside piece of militry ger tht is lso bnk envelope, it becomes kind of highconcept Hollywood pitch, like: The bnks meet the militry on the runwy. [lughs] c CB: All-in-one fscism. b BOLLEN / 20. Affirs, 2010, screenprint nd ink on luminum composite, instlled t Isbell Bortolozzi Glerie, Berlin, 2010 b. Inorgnic Ply, 2008, UV-cured ink jet on protective film over iridescent mirrored crylic, instlled t Kunsthlle Zürich, 2008 c. Sketch for Inside Out, 2011, ink jet on pper
SP: All-in-one ideologicl critique. Too dumb to even propose, within frmework tht s so concerned with criticlity. Cnvs is something you mke rmy ger out of, nd it s wht pintings re mde of, nd lredy you re too thick with signifiers. On the other hnd, I felt like, yes, I cn do it, precisely becuse it s just fshion. You wlk down the street nd see someone wering hoodie with n llover print of skulls nd crossbones, but then you notice the skulls re ctully SpongeBob, wering Monopoly top ht, nd it s not crossbones, it s dildo nd, like, mortgge contrct. Tht s fshion nd grphic design, or streetwer design, t lest. People just stck up these codes d nusem. But then s I ws working with this in the clothing, my nxiety bout doing tht for some reson flipped over into being excited bout engging with it, s rt, by preserving tht nxiety s prt of the work. I decided it could trnslte to document nd bring this other level of, I don t know wht to cll it, wreness of the mythology in the rt world bout critique. The lore round criticlity nd the politicl in rt. How if you trnsgress tht it s lmost seen s bd tste. Sying too much, or sying it in the wrong plce. And how politicl rt is often seen s sort of well intentioned but nive, but thnk God someone s doing it. I men, there cn be pretty nrrow view of wht the politicl is. And selling out, wht is tht? CB: Right. BOLLEN / 22. A model t the Folklore U.S. SS12 fshion show, stged during the opening of documenta (13), Kssel, in the Friedrichspltz prking grge, 2012 b. Lndschft Pck, 2012, UV-cured ink jet on vcuum-formed high-impct polystyrene, printed cotton b
SP: All these questions. Not tht this is my primry interest in doing this work, but it is wy to tke step bck nd think bout frming the project s whole, nd relting it to its context, giving it nother set of questions. So tht bsiclly gve me permission to do it. And show like document, lot of people re invested in seeing it s n lterntive to the U.S.-mrketbsed rt worlds, which re presumbly focused on shiny things nd post-pop heritge, nd, you know, fshion. I thought it seemed like good opportunity to show up, like, Here s the New York rtist, true to form. There s this Beuys quote where he sys something like, Everything people ccuse me of, I will be tht, over nd over. So we ll see wht hppens. CB: And you did fshion show lst fll, right? SP: Yes. I men, Tim did his SS12 show here [in New York City], nd our collbortion ws one prt of it. We chose spce together, n empty storefront. I did sound trck, I mde video. It ws fun. Tht show ws ll smples. We re in touch with Koren fctory now tht s mking the full line. f CB: Which corporte logos did you pick? SP: Cpitl One. The FDIC. Corbis, the imgerights gency. UBS. Pychex. And generic crosshtch envelope pttern. There re others. c d b e BOLLEN / Spred: Seth Price nd Tim Hmilton Spring/Summer 2012 presenttion, stged during New York Fshion Week, 2011. Invittions b. Seth Price Fshion, 2011, sound trck to the 24 presenttion, distributed s givewy c. The press ws interested in the video, which fetured 1981 Secret Service clothing styles d e. Video stills from SS12, 2011, n eight-minute video prepred for the presenttion f. A model sporting Cpitl One string tie, which luckily didn t mke it pst the smple stge
BOLLEN / PRICE 26. Working drwings showing homemde security ptterns, 2012, ink jet nd pen on pper
CB: I m surprised document is down with you showing fshion. Wht exctly re you plnning to exhibit? SP: The ide is to send two relted but seprte bodies of work. One prt involves the clothes I m doing with Tim. They ll be for sle, on the rcks t deprtment store in Kssel tht s ctully right next door to the min document venue, the Friedericinum. The two buildings ctully look similr, kind of eighteenth-century buildings, with colonndes. The deprtment store mostly sells lbels like Gnt nd Tommy Hilfiger, but they re debuting designer corner to coincide with document, nd they wnted to work with me. But bsiclly they re conservtive deprtment store in the provinces, so they re nervous bout putting rt in the windows. We hd to do pitch to their buyers, so I wrote it with no reference to militrism or ny rt concept, I presented it s just white sportswer. Which is not entirely untrue. You get to do tht with fshion, you cn lwys strip it bck to its mteril, utilitrin fcts: it s just fbric to put on your body, nd tht s fine, too. Wheres in rt there s n nxiety bout stripping it bck to just being mteril to put on the wlls, becuse then why re we even doing it? BOLLEN / 28. SinnLeffers deprtment store interior, with grment collection for sle. From Folklore U.S., 2012, t documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
CB: So you re doing the store windows. SP: Yes. They re big vitrines on the min document plz. It s like hving n extr venue for my work. Becuse the clothes re being consigned directly to the deprtment store. It s not going through document. Which mde me nervous, becuse the shopwindows in prticulr mount to very public instlltion by one of the exhibition rtists tht wsn t prt of the gme pln. More people will probbly see the shopwindows thn whtever I do in the exhibition hll. But luckily the curtor s into it. BOLLEN /. SinnLeffers deprtment store window, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 30
BOLLEN / PRICE 32. SinnLeffers deprtment store window, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
BOLLEN / PRICE 34. SinnLeffers deprtment store window, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 b. Blck Letter with Lek, 2012, in SinnLeffers deprtment store window b
CB: In five yers, document will be sponsored by Gucci. You ve opened the floodgtes. But you re still showing second body of work t document, right? SP: Yes. I m using the grment-industry connections nd ll the sme mterils to mke rtworks. They re these big, not quite werble security envelopes, but they re mde like grments, in the fshion system. It s like mutted versions of the clothes, with ll the rtios skewed differently. You hve the sme ides nd mterils, but they ren t mde for the humn form, they re mde for the wll. It s grment construction s sculpturl fct. So bsiclly you hve one ide tht gets sent to document through two different chnnels nd gets deformed by the prticulrities of those chnnels. At lest, I hope. b c d BOLLEN / 36. Studio view, 2012. Zhn Clic models the FDIC bomber jcket in front of Jumpsuit with Decortive Security, 2012 b. Exploded Jumpsuit with Decortive Pttern, 2012, linen cnvs, printed chrmeuse liner, snps, buttons, zippers, buckles, grommets, etc., documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 c. Federl Jumpsuit/ Corner Slump, 2012, cnvs, printed cotton liner, snps, buttons, drwstrings, grommets, etc., documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 d. Working drwing, 2011, pen nd ink jet on pper
BOLLEN / PRICE 38. Folklore U.S., 2012, instlltion view, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
BOLLEN / PRICE 40. Jumpsuit with Decortive Security, 2012, cnvs, printed liner, buckles, strps, drwstrings, etc., documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
BOLLEN / PRICE 42. Blck Letter, 2011, screenprint, gesso, nd crylic polymer on plywood, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
BOLLEN / PRICE 44. Exploded Envelope with Pyroll Pttern, 2012, cnvs, printed cotton liner, snps, buttons, zippers, grommets, etc., documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
BOLLEN / PRICE 46. Working drwing, 2012, ink jet on pper b. Blck Letter with Compny, 2012, screenprint, gesso, crylic, enmel, nd crylic polymer on plywood, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 b
BOLLEN / PRICE 48. Folklore U.S., 2012, instlltion view, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012
CB: On my Fcebook ccount the other dy, n vid rt ptron who shll remin nmeless posted n rticle tht bsiclly sid, In this dy of stock-mrket voltility nd rel estte implosion, the rich re diversifying their rt portfolios. In other words, rt is sfer investment right now thn gold. This womn posted the rticle s if it were something the rt world should celebrte. I don t wnt to seem old-fshioned, nor do I think tht rtists need to be poor to crete legitimte works. And yes, money mkes the rt world go round. But I think bunch of disinterested specultors buying up rt nd determining who gets shows nd wht hs vlue is pretty wful. At lest it s not the reson I took refuge in rt s young dult. I thought in your essy Dispersion you were trying to figure out wys to short-circuit tht reltionship between the rtist nd the buyer. SP: Well, I ws thinking bout different model of circultion. I never thought of it s replcement. I liked the ide of redundncy, tht you could operte in different economies simultneously, nd sometimes with the sme rtwork. And Dispersion ws my exmple of tht. It opertes in three spheres. It s vilble online s free PDF, nd tht version is vilble everywhere, there s no sptil loction, essentilly, unless you think of server somewhere s the loction. And there s no price. But then it lso exists s booklet you cn buy. It s selling for ten dollrs t Printed Mtter, nd then it comes up s used book on Amzon. Tht s the retil economy. And then I took the essy s lyout file nd printed the spreds on plstic nd vcuum-formed them over knotted ropes. Tht s sculpture, it ws for sle in the rt economy, t rt-world prices. And the essy got broken up, nd the pges got sent to different homes. So in wy it s this sme ide of sending work through different chnnels nd seeing how they recompose the messge. b BOLLEN / 50. Dispersion, rtist s book, self-published, 2002 b. Essy with Knots, 2008, screenprint on high-impct polystyrene vcuumformed over rope knots, nine pieces (eight shown here), instlled t The Museum of Modern Art, New York, 2014
CB: Isn t tht bit like hving your cke nd eting it, too? You cn sy your work is free to the public, but you lso get to sell it to the highest bidder. I don t know, Seth. SP: [lughs] I thought bout tht lot. But I could hve done tht with ny of my essys. Tht would hve been the cynicl gesture, to just keep moving them into this vcuum formt. But I think it mde sense with Dispersion, which ws lwys ll bout circultion. I didn t think of it s n essy ; it ws kind of n mbiguous mix of the text nd its design nd its circultion nd the different mnifesttions. So this ws wy to bring tht out. I liked the ide of tking the piece bck into mteril, into the plstic rts, nd pointing to the design s something to look t, n imge in nd of itself, rther thn just delivery device. I knew it would be something people would critique for hving my cke nd eting it, too, s you sid. I don t know if it ws successful gesture. But it seemed like there were enough questions or conflicts there tht it ws worth trying. There s so much nxiety mong rtists nd critics bout the concept of selling out tht it must be interesting to engge with on some level. I lwys like working in n re where there s thret of compromise. Well, mybe not lwys. But it s good to feel little uncomfortble bout some spect of n rtwork, whether it s mteril, conceptul, or some spect of the economics. If you don t ply with these things little bit, they strt to flow relly smoothly. And soon you re not even wre tht they re things you cn fuck with. BOLLEN / 52. Essy with Knots pp. 12 13, 2008 (detil), screenprint on high-impct polystyrene vcuum-formed over rope knots
CB: So selling out is never n issue for you? SP: Well, the fshion thing strted becuse I hd this urge to sell out this piece tht hd been tken nd plced in this other constelltion. And I don t wnt to complin tht the work got bought by MoMA. I ws relly hppy bout it. But it ws lso conflicted feeling. So tking the clothes to document is wy of plying with tht feeling of selling out. Not economiclly, more in terms of integrity or whtever. And to tke the project to stge where certinly it will be picked prt. And mybe it won t work. It could come cross s this simplistic eqution of rt nd commerce. The whole cliché of rt nd fshion is good reson not to do it. CB: Well, rt cn brely find new wy to sell out. When you think bck to tht notorious 1974 Lynd Benglis d in Artforum where she posed nked with dildo nd sunglsses, two of the editors, like Roslind Kruss, were so outrged they resigned from the mgzine. Ten yers go, Artforum ws chockblock with Dior Homme ds nd no one sid word. We ve come long wy, in other words, in forty yers, with the reltionship of rt nd fshion. The udiences hve intermingled, nd they ve infiltrted ech other. b BOLLEN / 54. Cutting hir in preprtion for the SS12 fshion show, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012: Give ll the guys number one, ll round b. Willim Grper styling model t the fitting for the SS12 fshion show, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 c. Poster hnging in the Friedrichspltz prking grge for the SS12 fshion show, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 c
SP: There s kind of seduction/repulsion qulity tht s consistent. Tht s big prt of it. I ws wlking down the street few months go nd they were opening new YSL boutique, nd there ws plywood fence round the construction site, nd the fence ws covered with billbord-size vinyl print of mostly nked womn dvertising the store. It ws n inflmmtory imge, nd people hd been scrwling ll over it. CB: Wht did they write? SP: Objections. This imge is degrding to women, things like tht. My first rection ws to stop nd look t the imge, becuse I like the seduction. And lso I m interested in fshion photogrphy, nd I m interested in dvertising, nd I m interested in printing technologies. And my next rection ws to red the commentry, which is lso interesting. I like grffiti nd the destruction of privte property nd vndlism, nd I like dissent nd unlicensed commentry. And I gree with lot of the sentiments people were writing. But I detest morlizing more thn nything, so I ws lso thinking, why cn t you just let me enjoy my stupid moment of seduction! I liked ll of those different pushes nd pulls in one moment. c CB: Wht world it is when the vndl is the morl center tht is monitoring culturl imgery. SP: The whole thing ws complicted. I m interested in tht tngle. b d BOLLEN / 56. Tote bg with poster, invittion, nd sound-trck CD, given wy t the SS12 fshion show, documenta (13), Kssel, 2012 b. Noodles, 2011, UV-cured ink jet, enmel, nd resin on vcuum-formed high-impct polystyrene, rope knots c. Fuck You, 2011, oil on Yves Sint Lurent hndbg d. Untitled, 2006, vcuum-formed high-impct polystyrene with imittion-velvet surfce, rope knot